It’s time for the 92nd edition of You Asked, The Gymternet Answered! We apologize if we haven’t gotten to your question yet, but we try to answer in the order in which they were received (unless they are super relevant and need to be answered in a timely manner). Something you want to know? Ask us anonymously by going through the contact form at the bottom of the page.
How did Russia get so weak on floor?
I think most of their problems lie in their conditioning, or lack thereof. It’s difficult to have strong floor routines when your athletes are so under-conditioned. While some of their girls can probably throw big tumbling elements, without proper conditioning they’re not able to put any of those passes into full routines, where they tend to all look a bit short in the endurance department even with easier tumbling. Even the juniors…you see them all kind of fading out by the end of the routine, so clearly they need to start focusing on how to get through a full set without losing so much energy and stamina.
When some U.S. gymnasts have issues with endurance, they rely on personal trainers to get them more in shape (not in the sense that they have to lose weight, but rather getting them to build on their fitness levels to become more efficient athletes). Seda Tutkhalyan, for example, has some strong foundations on floor, but her difficulty is only around a 5.7 and she’s unable to make up for that with strong e-scores because she’s usually short on most of her passes. With her power and talent, she should be doing so much more than she is, but because of her lack of conditioning, she’s unable to make that happen. Hopefully they’ll be able to work on this endurance/conditioning issue going forward because it’s a shame that they’re so far behind on this event when they’re so strong everywhere else.
Would former Olympians at their peak be in consideration this year?
I’m assuming this means in the U.S. so I’ll go from that and run…I think Nastia Liukin at her peak would be a major contender, and would probably solve that whole “Madison vs Ashton” battle quite easily, given that she was fantastic on both bars and beam. Shawn Johnson would’ve also been in the mix with her Amanar and killer beam, Kyla Ross at her best could’ve been up for the bars/beam spot (though peak Nastia would’ve won out), Jordyn Wieber likely would’ve been in the mix…it’s hard to consider gymnasts from quads earlier than 2008 because the code was different so I’m sticking to the past two only, but yeah, I think Nastia, Shawn, Kyla, and Jordyn at the height of their careers would’ve been big contenders. I didn’t include McKayla Maroney because with the depth with both those actually competing this year plus those former peak Olympians, I don’t think she would’ve made it with just her vault as a contributing event.
Some invitationals have abandoned competition bibs in favor of numbers in magic marker, usually written on the hand. Is there a reason for this, other than perhaps prolonging the life of the leotard by not putting holes in it? Numbers on the hand seems like a poor replacement, since they’re often covered by grips or wrist guards.
I actually went to an NCAA meet in 2011 where they had their numbers spray painted onto their outer thighs…it was a bigger meet, the Pac 12 Preview hosted at UCLA, so this was a good way to keep track of everyone…and the outer thigh was almost always visible to judges, photographers, fans, etc. I think that definitely makes more sense than numbers written on the hands in magic marker, especially since hands are often covered, as you said. In terms of forgoing bibs, in addition to damaging the leos, they can also be distracting if they fall off or start dangling mid-routine, and it’s also annoying when you’re thinking about your routine and then realize ten seconds before you have to start that you’ve forgotten to pin it on (it definitely happens). I think because the elite level is so much about the aesthetic, the FIG probably wouldn’t go for marker. With all of the technology coming to the sport, it would be cool to see some kind of advancement with how they do numbers.
What do you think of the code of points changes and team size changes that are being made for the 2020 Olympics? Do you think it will motivate gymnasts in the U.S. to throw harder skills leading to more injuries?
Not necessarily, especially given that most top countries will also earn the two individual spots in addition to the four team spots, so really six gymnasts will get the opportunity to go to the Olympics. Even though there’s a lot of talk about how making the team itself will be more of an ‘honor’ than getting an individual spot, at the end of the day, the Olympics are the Olympics, and I don’t think anyone will try anything riskier than usual. As in any year, it’ll come down to a country’s depth…like, five-member teams existed both in 2012 and in 2016, but you could say at this point, making the U.S. team this year is much more competitive than making the 2012 team was due to the tremendous amount of depth, and you never know…the levels of depth could go down in the next four years so odds for making a five-member team this year could be more difficult than odds for making a four-member team in 2020. The team size dropped from six in 2008 to five in 2012 with no correlation to a greater number of injuries (if anything, you could say 2008 was far more inundated with injuries), so I doubt it’ll be affected going from five to four, especially given that while four may be the official team size, the U.S. will more than likely send six total.
What exactly is a shaposh? What is the difference between a shaposh and a Maloney?
A shaposh, short for Shaposhnikova and named for the Soviet gymnast Natalia Shaposhnikova, is a low-to-high uneven bars transition. The skill starts with a clear hip facing away from the high bar, and when the clear hip is complete, the gymnast lets go of the bar following the upward momentum during the flight up to and then catching the high bar.
There are several variations of the shaposh. While the ‘original recipe’ shaposh features a clear hip into the transition, other shaposh variations are done from a pike circle, a stalder, or an inbar stalder. A shaposh can also involve a half or full twist while in flight. All of these shaposh variations are named for the originators who first competed them. The Maloney is the shaposh variation named for the U.S. gymnast Kristen Maloney, who did a pike circle (also known as a toe-on) into the flight, with the toe-on shaposh officially called the Maloney.
Other shaposh variations include the Khorkina (shaposh half), van Leeuwen (toe-on shaposh half), Seitz (toe-on shaposh full), Chow (stalder shaposh), Chow half (stalder shaposh half), Komova II (inbar shaposh), and Komova (inbar shaposh half).
Why do you think UCLA hasn’t won an NCAA title in six years? They had/have enough talent to do so but it never translated.
It’s basically been a tough field and they’ve had far too many injuries and medical retirements and other issues to make them major contenders. There have been years where I thought they could come close, but with so many issues and things going on behind the scenes, it’s been difficult for them to have everything come together when it counts, even though I do think they have one of the top levels of gymnastics in the country. But they are pretty behind in terms of their vault ability, and are also lacking on bars, so that really hurts when you have teams with girls who can stick one Yurchenko 1.5 after another. They haven’t been so far behind other teams that they’ve been at a real risk for losing their spot at a top program, but I think they spent several years after 2010 in a transitional period due to some bad luck (like losing both Mattie Larson and Cassie Whitcomb due to injury shortly after the 2010 season) and are now on the road to building back up to a top three program based on the hugely talented incoming classes they have joining them in the next couple of years.
Is there any sort of international requirement for the elite level? Hypothetically, could a nation with basically no program send a gymnast with routines that have, like, a 1.0 d-score to worlds as an elite artistic gymnast?
Nope! Each nation has its own standard, so countries just starting out and trying to put programs in place are allowed spots at international meets in the same way the best countries in the world can compete. Some international meets do require qualification (for example, gymnasts had to qualify to the Youth Olympic Games through continental meets in 2014 and for the 2015 Pan Am Games, nations had to qualify through the Pan Am Championships a year earlier), but basically any nation that creates a federation and is admitted into the FIG can send gymnasts to continental championships or FIG meets, which is why in 2015 we saw gymnasts from Namibia, Monaco, and the Cayman Islands with d-scores of around 1.0 on bars competing in the same meet as gymnasts with d-scores of 6.7 on the same event.
Often, gymnasts who are so far behind in their skill level will get a 1.0 total score as a courtesy, which is what I heard happened when a gymnast from the newly-created Kosovo federation went to EYOF last summer with a floor routine featuring only basic somersaults and cartwheels. Most of her ‘skills’ weren’t even A-level, and she repeated some skills over and over again, so there was pretty much no way to accurately judge her at the elite level. They gave her a 0.6 d-score and a 4.4 e-score, and then took away 4 points as a penalty for a ‘short exercise’ which means it lacked eight rated elements.
Basically, the idea is to allow nations of all levels to get the same competitive opportunities as those at the top, and while they may not meet the criteria that will qualify them to higher level events – like the Olympic Games – they’ll still get to experience major international competition.
How likely do you think it is that Maria Paseka or Hong Un Jong will really add the extra half twist to their vaults?
I mean, Hong Un Jong has been saying she’s been going to do the TTY since 2008 and submits it every year at worlds but never does it, so odds are, we’ll never see it. I don’t think she’ll use the Olympic Games as her first time ever casually throwing a never-before-competed vault, but you never know. Crazier things have happened. That said, Maria is even less likely. She’s been dealing with injuries this season and could barely get the Amanar around at nationals, so her focus is probably on getting back into top shape so she can hit that and her Cheng rather than trying something crazy when her body is breaking down enough as it is.
What’s the difference between a Mitchell turn and a Memmel turn?
A Mitchell turn is a triple wolf turn on beam and floor, both named for Australia’s Lauren Mitchell. A Memmel turn is a double Y turn on floor named for Chellsie Memmel of the United States.
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Article by Lauren Hopkins
The Gymternet 
Do you think Simone is the best all arounder the US has had since 2008? In the previous two quads, there have been atleast 2 girls fighting for the top spot and this year it’s Simone, and then everyone else. Like if Gabby was in her top form, like 2012, would she be closer to Simone?
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I think she’s the best all-arounder the WORLD has had probably ever. So yes, she is the best all-arounder in the U.S. since 2008. 🙂
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I think it’s hard to say about ever. Due to the fast evolution of gymnastics, it’s hard to say how gymnasts would’ve ended up modern day. Like what would Korbut, Shaposhnikova, Caslavska, Yurchenko, Comaneci, Gnauck, especially a non paralyzed Mukhina etc. with their hugely difficult and clean routines would’ve done had they been placed in modern day gymnastics? I don’t think they would’ve matched Biles but the 10 system didn’t count difficulty, so I think it’s difficult to determine how old style gymnasts from 70s-80s would line up because it was basically go clean, you win. Like I feel like if you put Elena Mukhina at her prime, (and obviously not paralyzed and living) she would challenge. Mukhina was training skills that some of the men didn’t even dare to perform on floor, full twisting Korbut on bars, etc. and got paralyzed training the Thomas Salto, which was one of the hardest men’s elements that I believe became a banned skill after her incident. And the floor isn’t even nearly as springy as it was now. And the same could be said about Olessia Dudnik, maybe a 2000 Khorkina, Zmeskal, etc.
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I’m not looking at it under a points system, because obviously the 10.0 system is much harder to win under, given that it put everyone on the same page. I’m talking in terms of sheer talent. Obviously in the 70s and 80s especially, the old equipment didn’t give many advantages, and gymnastics was straight up nearly a different sport in the 60s, so I could also say Vera Caslavska and Larisa Latynina were also the best ever based on what they had to compete with. But because it’s impossible to put everyone in a bubble where time doesn’t exist and we can only go on what girls of the 60s/70s/80s/90s/early 2000s did in their time compared to what Simone’s doing now, what Simone is doing now makes her transcend everyone else outside of judging systems. She has the most difficult set of skills, period, and she’s good at what she does. While it would’ve been much harder for her to consistently win titles in a 10.0 system because she’d have to be close to perfect every single time, she still would’ve been the strongest all-around competitor even if the 10.0 system didn’t value her higher level of skills (just like I can say Nellie Kim was the best vaulter in 1976 because she had the most difficult vault AND hit it as well as the girls with easier vaults even though the points system didn’t reward her). Because the code of points changes so often you have to look beyond quantitative measures to judge the greatest of all time, and like I said, yes, girls with crappier apparatuses are at a disadvantage so there’s that as well. But you can’t take “what ifs” into consideration. If that’s the case I could also say “what if” Dipa Karmakar was born in the U.S. to wealthy parents who gave her access to the best training facilities instead of being born in India and working with almost zero resources? Maybe SHE’D be the best all-arounder ever. But hypotheticals, what-ifs, and the code of points aside, I think Biles is definitely one of the greatest all-arounders ever, if not THE best. And I’m sure in 20 years when we’ve seen even more advancement, we’ll be saying that about someone else.
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Yeah that does make sense, I just can’t help thinking about hypotheticals. But (this might be a really dumb question) your last comment got me thinking… do you think gymnastics is approaching (or even already has) a point where the human body’s capabilities and advancement of equipment will intersect and the progression of elements and skills will cease?
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Re: the past quads in current Olympic contention question – what about Alicia Sacramone?
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I considered her but I don’t think she would’ve really contended against most of the girls up for the same spots…she’d need to be in the top three on vault, beam, and floor, and I don’t think she’d be top three on any of those at her peak compared to at others’ peaks.
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Vault: Gabby, Shawn, Simone
Bars: Simone, Gabby, Nastia
Beam: Shawn, Nastia, Simone
Floor: Aly, Shawn, Simone
Gabby still makes it. Shawn, Nastia and Simone make it. Basically, the final spot would have to go to Aly, Jordan, or a bars specialist. Even with the best of the US best, we still suck at bars. 😦
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The highest bar difficulty for US might not have gone up to the level of Chinese or Russian or GB’s highest but I think the depth has gone up a bit. Currently there are more US bars workers with 6.5+ than back in 2012. the highest us ub d score is still lower than Chinese or Russian or GB. However, the us has consistently got 2nd or 1st in ub in team competition in 2014 and 2015, thanks to the depth and consistency.
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So sad Bailie Key and Norah Flatley and Foberg is out of PG :(….
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They weren’t going to make it anyway but it’s sad that we won’t get to see them. Norah got the worst of it, her last competition was early last yearand apparently she’s training for NCAA now, not olympics? I’m not sure. But if it’s true, then she never got to be a senior elite. Bailie Key solidified an idea in my mind of Zmeskaks bad luck. Zmeskal herself in 1992 and all her gymnasts end up going in at a bang rather as a junior like Bailie, or in first year like Ragen right now and Peyton Ernst in 2013, but they fizzle out afterwards and don’t make a major team despite their obvious talent (though Ragen isn’t out of it just yet). No confirmation on if Bailie will continue but I doubt it. Foberg confirmed she’s continuing and I feel like she can at least have one good senior elite year next year if her body can take it, we just have to see how it pans out.
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I really think they should stick it out. The US might actually need them. We might see all or some of 2016 team taking time off (temporarily or permanently) considering how old the team will be… Key can definitely fit in somewhere along with Norah and her beam…. I m really sad not seeing norah in the senior role…
I mean there are several good juniors but none seems to be in the 60s yet… so I definite think that if norah and key sticks around, they would be competitive for 2017 worlds. I mean they haven’t started to decline like Kyla yet so they should stick around..
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Bailie Key has declined, she maxed out early 2014 and has been plagued with injuries ever since. Her vault scores became lower when she became senior, her beam went from high 14s to low 14s and her floor went from 15s to high 14s. The only event she got better on is bars, but even that will decline because the injury that took her out was a back injury. For Norah, we haven’t seen enough of her to really say for sure.
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Yeah I guess so ;(. It just so hard to see it happen though…. I mean it sucks to have to leave b/c of injuries rather being straight up beaten by new talents.
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Yeah it is tough to see, no doubt. I’m sadder for Norah because her senior career literally never started. We always here sad incidents in which someone’s senior career “ended before it really started” but Norah’s last competition was beginning of last year, maybe even before? So she never got to be an actual senior elite. But still, both are sad. As an athlete (I’m a cross country runner now, did gymnastics for a few years as a little kid) , I’d rather just simply not be good enough than to beaten down by injury, i wholeheartedly agree with that.
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I would add to the Russian floor problem that while their conditioning has undoubtedly gotten worse with Alexandrov gone, it’s always been an achilles heel for them. It’s just gotten way more obvious now that they aren’t allowed to catch a breathing break in the corner before a tumbling run. Grishina was probably the best example, it used to be a running joke among fans with her that she always went overtime because she took so much time in the corner in between passes. Now that they aren’t allowed to do that, they have to try and work breathing breaks into their choreography, haven’t exactly found a way to be successful at it (I think they had a change in choreographer too), AND their conditioning has gotten worse at the same time. So it’s much more obvious now than that they’re struggling.
I could go into a long rant about how much I hate the way the corner rule was implemented and how I think it’s killed the flow of routines and how absurd some of the deductions for adjusting your feet are and how choreography would be better off everywhere without it, even in the places that are doing a decent job now. But that’s another discussion haha, and it doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s conditioning program is seriously hurting their gymnasts.
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Do you think the banning of Meldonium has anything to do with it too?
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I was thinking that, or more the LACK of meldonium, but even when they were all using it, floor was still pretty comparatively weak. Aliya stopping meldonium has certainly made her floor even weaker, but I think there are problems beyond that to begin with, which comes down to conditioning.
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Maybe if there were clear scientific consensus that it did anything to begin with…but that’s debatable. I think it’s far more likely that their conditioning just really sucks for this level of gymnastics, and that’s unfortunately not likely to change with the current leadership based on the reports that they have cut down on the level of conditioning since 2012. I think it was initially a misguided attempt to cut down on injuries, but that epically failed. I know Bogi at least has spoken out about it before when she visited the training center a few years ago.
Aliya lost some more time to back problems earlier this year and I think they’re trying to be careful with her as a result. Except then they let her compete floor at Euros anyway after saying for weeks that she wasn’t going to be ready, and she clearly wasn’t, because Russia will be Russia. I’m not sure she would physically hold up at this point if they tried to go any faster – I suspect that’s what happened to Komova. It’s hard to consistently throw your high difficulty for too long without getting injured even when you are well conditioned, and Russia is not.
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How do you know they were all on melodonium? That’s just as bad as when Komova claimed that all the US gymnasts were on steroids.
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Many of them tested positive for it last year, before it was a banned substance. They didn’t release all of the names, but Aliya Mustafina was one they did release, and something like 27 of the gymnasts from central/eastern Europe who competed at least year’s European Games all tested positive as well. The Euro Games was used as a litmus test as to whether they should ban meldonium, and because nearly everyone tested positive for it, that factored into their decision to ban it.
Also, a fan suggesting that the lack of meldonium is responsible for weakened floor routines is nowhere near as bad as an international gymnast accusing fellow athletes of cheating by using steroids, something no U.S. gymnast has ever tested positive for. There is a basis in asking if meldonium has anything to do with their weakness, and that basis is that most were actually in fact taking the substance until it was banned. It’s nothing against them – it was allowed and they used it as an advantage. Most sports programs did.
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I don’t think they ever released anyone’s name from before 2016 because it would be illegal? One Italian article SPECULATED that she might have been a gymnast in Baku who used it, they even used her picture and then went on to state in the article they had zero proof because zero names were released! So very gossipy. I’ll also point out that 1) it was 7 gymnasts across all 5 gymnastics disciplines that competed in Baku (not 27, and not just MAG and WAG – they didn’t specify which events they were from); and 2) the women’s team doctor, who is separate from the men’s and makes his own decisions about what supplements to give gymnasts, has stated in an interview that none of the women have used it for a few years. Valentina as usual hadn’t even talked to him before she commented on the situation w/the MAG gymnast. You can decide whether or not to believe the doctor, but that’s all sides of the story.
I agree it’s not comparable to Komova’s comments about steroids and it’s fine to speculate. I just don’t think it has anything to do with why they’re so weak on floor (I read quite a few articles in NYtimes re: Sharapova that it’s scientifically debatable whether this even does what it’s advertised – as you pointed out, the rationale for banning it was mainly that a lot of athletes used it). They’re weak on floor because the Russian coaches decided to ease up on their conditioning regimen following London, and the results have been pretty disastrous for them. It’s also much more obvious that they’re struggling because the code doesn’t let them chill out in the corner anymore. I’ll shut up about this now haha.
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Flatley is officially done for this year too :(.
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