Simone Biles

It’s time for the 341st edition of You Asked, The Gymternet Answered!

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How does the FIG define a successful attempt of a new skill? Would a 0.5 neutral deduction on Simone Biles’ Yurchenko double pike prevent it from getting named after her?

Usually they just require that it’s “hit” which is kind of ambiguous, but mostly just means that it happens correctly as described (meaning if you say you’re doing a piked Jaeger but then fully tuck your legs, you’re out of luck) and without any falls. Going into worlds, my thought process was that if Simone got the Yurchenko double pike to her feet, the element would absolutely 100% be named for her even if she had her coach on the podium with her for safety reasons, and ultimately this is how it worked out!

Do you think what happened with Simone Biles in Tokyo might change the way people look at team building? If they hadn’t all been reasonably solid all-arounders in Tokyo, they would’ve been totally screwed. I know Tokyo was different because of the four-person team, but I think the concept could still carry over to a five-person team.

Teams having “built-in alternates” is something I have always been MOST concerned with for every worlds or Olympics! I know it’s not a priority for everyone, including national team coaches who love their specialists, especially because it’s rare that we’ve seen a team need a last-minute replacement, but it happens and there’s really no way to prevent it, so why wouldn’t you want a built-in alternate just in case?! I don’t think that means teams need to have the straight top five all-arounders, but I do think if you’re going for a bars specialist or a vault specialist because they’re the top-scoring events and these specialists have the greatest potential to add the most to the team, they should also have the ability to add backup on the other apparatuses because you never know what could happen during the competition.

If someone finishes 11th all-around but is in the top three on bars, for example, I think they should be ranked higher on a team list than someone who finishes first on bars but can’t contribute elsewhere, and also think they should be ranked higher than someone who finishes fifth all-around but not in the top three anywhere. This is how I always look at ranking teams, and even if this person scores a few tenths lower on average on bars compared to the true specialist, I’d rather take them for their backup value. Of course, the con there is that you could have the best gymnast in the world on bars and they’d never get a chance at winning a world or Olympic title, which feels cruel, and some nations that value medals in general over team rankings might pick this person not caring about their potential effect on the team’s standing. But I know the U.S. tends to value the team medal above all else, in which case I think all-arounders with standout events will always have the edge over true specialists, and I also think it’s why almost all gymnasts in the U.S. train all four events even if they have a lot of weaknesses outside of their best events.

Is it possible to do a Jaeger between the bars? Would you have to be super short to do it?

I guess it could be possible…for me it’s getting the forward giant swing around without hitting your feet on the low bar before releasing that would be the biggest issue, as I’d imagine hitting your feet but not having quick enough reflexes to stop your hands from letting go of the bar into the release could create an unnecessarily dangerous fall situation. It would be easier for shorter gymnasts, but still not worth the risk. Like, there’s still the risk of hitting the bar on a front giant for a Jaeger on the outside of the high bar, but in that case your feet are coming down onto the bar and it’s early enough in the swing where you wouldn’t be releasing immediately after, but doing the front giant the other way would have your feet coming up from below the bar in the opposite direction of your momentum so that scares me a bit!

Any insight into why a piked Jaeger was downgraded to a D? Isn’t it harder than a straddled Jaeger?

The technical committee seems to devalue skills in ways where it’s not relative to their difficulty compared to other skills, but rather because they simply see a lot of the skill and have the idea that if so many gymnasts are competing it, could it really be THAT difficult? I would say for most gymnasts, holding a piked shape in a release is harder than holding a straddled position, so in that case, yes, a piked Jaeger is harder than a straddled Jaeger. There are always those who don’t fit the “norm” and who might find a pike easier than a straddle for whatever reason, but I think if you were to survey a number of gymnasts, most would say the pike is harder to do correctly. I think even if the WTC was annoyed with such a high number of athletes doing the piked version and therefore concluded that it was “easy” they should still figure out a way to differentiate between it and a truly easier skill, as now there is zero incentive to do a pike unless you just prefer that shape, or you’ve been doing it forever and aren’t going to change things now even though it’s no longer getting you a tenth, or whatever your reasoning may be.

What makes the double pike vault that Simone Biles competed so much more difficult than other vaults that gymnasts compete?

It’s two flips! That’s really it. Or two and a half flips if you want to get technical, since vaulters start their rotations on their hands and have to complete a half flip before moving into the salto in the vault. 🙂

Every single other vault you see WAG athletes competing right now has just the one salto – whether it’s a simple Yurchenko back tuck or a super difficult Amanar or Cheng, all of these vaults have just one flip, and their difficulty increases based on the position (tuck vs. pike vs. layout) and the number of twists (no twists vs. two and a half twists). But the Yurchenko double pike has a whole extra salto. A double salto is difficult enough to get around on floor where you have the momentum from a roundoff and back handspring as well as the set that comes from pushing off of your legs, but on vault, you’re pushing off of the table from your arms and to generate the amount of power needed to get two (and a half, technically!) saltos around safely is literally impossible for most gymnasts. We do see more double saltos in MAG, though the back saltos are still pretty rare with most men preferring double front saltos, and we have seen some double fronts in WAG – the Produnova is the handspring double front, and was pretty popular in the 2016 quad – but Simone’s vault is the first time we’ve successfully seen a woman land a double back vault in history.

There’s also the massive risk of getting lost in the air or missing your block to not generate enough momentum to rotate that makes it so difficult. Vault is inherently dangerous, and we’ve seen several vaults in recent years where a block hasn’t worked out the way it should because of missed foot placement in pre-flight or misjudging the hand placement on the table, and the gymnast hasn’t been able to push off of the table to get their single salto around – look at Jade Carey’s first vault in the Olympic vault final as an example. She was still able to figure out the landing and walk away safely, and someone with Simone’s experience would also likely notice if something was off in her block and have the reflexes Jade had to stop the intended vault. But if something did go wrong and Simone – or any other gymnast attempting a double back – wasn’t able to correct in time, there’s a massive risk of landing on her head or neck that doesn’t really exist the same way in a vault with a single flip. Basically, if an Amanar or Cheng goes wrong, a gymnast blows out their knee or breaks their ankle, which sucks, but if a Yurchenko double pike goes wrong, they could literally crush their spine.

Did McKayla Maroney compete an Amanar before Shawn Johnson?

No, but it was close! I believe the first time Shawn competed the Amanar was at the American Cup in 2008, where she sat it, but she started standing it up in competition pretty soon after. McKayla Maroney’s first time competing it was when she was 13 years old at nationals in 2009, so about 18 months after Shawn first competed it. She was probably training it earlier on, though, so it’s possible she was training it around the same time Shawn started competing it!

I noticed Georgia Godwin has two Pak saltos in her bars routine. Is there any deduction she gets for having two of the same skill?

There isn’t a deduction for this, but if you repeat a skill, you only get credit for it once, so she’s not receiving any D score for her second Pak. Sometimes this is fine if it helps with your routine construction, like having multiple back handsprings on beam – if a gymnast is counting skills at a value that low and has three or four back handsprings in her routine, she’d only get credit for one, but the others are still necessary to make various series possible. I believe Georgia’s second Pak is integral to her routine construction (for her), so while it’s not ideal and while she’s not getting any credit for the second one, it still makes sense for her to have it for reasons that I personally don’t understand but good for her for doing what she needs to build a solid and consistent routine that works for her.

Are there any beam skills that have the same D score whether completed in cross stand or side stand? If there are, why would that be the case considering the side variation is more difficult?

Not that I can think of…I’m pretty sure most of the side stand versions are generally a tenth higher than the cross stand versions, except weirdly a straddle jump from side stand is worth an A while a straddle from cross stand is worth a B if I remember correctly? I guess I can kind of see it for that jump…but yeah, if there were jumps at the same level of difficulty from both positions, it would definitely limit the likelihood of athletes doing the side stand versions since the extra risk wouldn’t be worth the reward.

Have the rules surrounding elite gymnastics gotten way too strict? It seems like it’s snuffed out all creativity compared to the NCAA.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Routines are so cookie cutter now because once someone figures out the most efficient composition on an apparatus – the highest possible difficulty with the lowest possible risk – everyone ends up copy-pasting that formula and all routines are essentially the same.

Then there’s the fact that there’s so much emphasis on things like constant movement on beam, standing on one foot in the corner on floor, all of these pointless and arbitrary rules that take away from an athlete’s ability to be more fluid and nautral in her artistry. The FIG is demanding artistry and taking deductions for a lack of aristry on beam and floor, but they’re also the root of the problem because they’ve created SO many rules that limit what athletes are able to do. I wish they’d take a step back and give athletes more freedom to express themselves without getting lost in the sea of restrictions and requirements that make routines worse, not better.

Is a team with Simone Biles, Gabby Douglas, and Sunisa Lee possible for Paris? Has there ever been a team with three Olympic all-around champions?

It could be possible! We all know Simone is back, what we’ve seen from Gabby in the gym has been incredible and I’m so excited to see her compete again, and while Suni is dealing with an illness that has been limiting what she can do, I thought she looked fantastic on beam at the national competitions this summer, and wouldn’t count her out even if she’s not at a hundred percent. And no, we have never before seen an Olympic team starring three Olympic all-around champions!

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Article by Lauren Hopkins